iDIDJ Australia Didgeridoo Cultural Hub

[ididjaustralia]

I thought I'd chime in on this one. Randy is correct in that dialects (note the emphasis) are inherited from Ancestral Beings. For the Wurrkiganydjarr Marrangu people, for example, their language comes from the Gikangi bird which is sort of like a magpie. Strangely enough, according to family, this bird is found nowhere else in Arnhem Land except for a small little area at Galadjapiny outstation, on Wurrkiganydjarr Marrangu land.

I would also agree with Randy that getting engaged in formal learning programs like the one offered by CDU may be useful.

Where I disagree is on the "proper channels, consultation and oversight" thing, and I'm saying that with 2 hats on: one from the perspective of students who want to learn something about Indigenous Australian languages, and the 2nd perspective from an understanding of Yolngu (and other Indigenous) concerns about cultural property.

The sentiment about "proper channels" and "approved channels" can get a bit... ah... what's the word? People who don't know better might start to think that the only correct information or the only valid projects are those acquired or done through "proper channels" or "approved channels" whatever that may mean. And how wrong could that view be?!

In Yolngu society and in other parts of Arnhem Land, language is something that is not learnt through any sort of formalised system or channels. Language is a form of communication remember? And to understand one another we need language. There are some especially talented individuals in Arnhem Land who know dozens of Indigenous languages/dialects... and we're talking about languages that are not mutually intelligible meaning that they do not have the same grammatical rules nor the same vocabulary, so knowing one language does not equip an individual with the skills to know the other. I'm talking about, for example, a Yolngu man who can speak the languages from Tiwi, Groote, Daly, Roper, Oenpelli, Goulburn, Yuendumu etc. I've met a handful of individuals like that and each time it astonishes me. And motives me to learn more...

These individuals did not enrol in any formal learning program. There was no approved or proper channels for learning or teaching. Nor was there contempt for learning this way among Aboriginal people either... it is just the done thing as language is something that is picked up through interaction, listening, practicing. The necessity of being guided through authorised instruction as is the case with painted designs, song, etc. does not apply to language.

The crucial point here is that this is where language differs from song, painted design, dance, and other forms of cultural property.

If I repeat what Yolngu say about institutions like ARDS, it isn't that the organisation or the individuals behind it are stealing culture or language, but that Yolngu are missing out on opportunities and jobs (ie. money) to educate others. Also, if I may repeat what Yolngu say, ARDS gets it wrong quite often when there is a Balanda talking on behalf of them. The words are wrong, the grammar is wrong, the pronunciation is wrong. Not all the time, but enough for Yolngu to laugh at the Yolngu Radio program that ARDS has established.

As for CDU, I don't know, I haven't heard Yolngu say anything but I would imagine again that it isn't an issue about perceptions of Michael Christie or John G stealing culture, but that Yolngu are missing out on jobs (ie. money) taken up by Balanda. This is a valid point and something that needs addressing on a large scale. The question is, why do Indigenous people not fill jobs that they are perfectly suited to and most appropriate for?

I would be very surprised if any Yolngu took offence at a language section here on the Forum. If they do, I'm most happy to speak to them. I know most of the committee of Yolngu educators at CDU and was employed by CDU (then called NTU) way back... and I'm still resisting calls to work at CDU now

Coming back to my first hat, I think if students are serious about learning language, it comes down to personal motivation. Part of that is gathering any and all information that is easily accessible... or even not so accessible. In a way, the internet has made many of us lazy because we think all the answers to all our questions can be found here. And that is plain wrong. There is no substitute to interacting with Yolngu on a daily basis, living alongside them, learning on the go. If that is not possible, there are good books that teach the grammar quite well. There are audio-visual resources too these days, and I've spoken to some Yolngu about producing some language CDs that will be useful for students... just a matter of finding the time to do it.

The one thing I would say about the CDU program is that it may be expensive for some, and it may also be set at too high a level for beginners. A little story to illustrate the point... a young woman here in Melbourne was enrolled (still is) in the course and though she made good progress, whenever she had an assignment to complete she'd come to me. This was especially the case last year. And being the kind person I am, I would sometimes complete almost the whole thing for her! John G complemented her on the high marks she was achieving, but I'm thinking now that those marks don't reflect the student's competence, not with the amount of help I provided. Now that the student has relocated to Darwin, I thought that I would no longer have to help her with her assignments (they do take time) but out of the blue she emailed me earlier this year with a sound file in Yolngu Matha and a rough transcription with a request to help her complete the rest. She said she had asked Yolngu in Darwin for help, but they responded that the speech in Gupapuyngu was too fast for them. I felt a a mix of confusion and frustration, that a course designed to teach language is missing its mark, and one more time I was obliged to fill in the blanks for her.

I would emphasise the personal motivation bit one more time. If you're interested in learning, you will learn no matter what. You don't need a university course, you don't need this Forum. And learning is a life long thing too especially with languages.

Guan

_________________
iDIDJ Australia - Didgeridoo Cultural Hub
E-mail: info@ididj.com.au
Web: www.ididj.com.au
YouTube: www.youtube.com/ididjaustralia

[Ed Drury]

Hi Daniel,
I studied Gupapuyngu through what was then called NTU. Not the best student they had for sure, but the effort was well worth the investment in time. Currently I study Hawai`ian language, but the experience of parsing yolngu matha was invaluable - don't think I would have taken on study of another language without it. I can't agree with Guan more about the aspect of personal motivation and that learning is a life long activity.
Ed

_________________
Home

[danielsaan]

Yirrkala Arts wrote:

Hey Dan, Let's see... how to explain a bit more... basically, language is just one of those elements that are specific to clans. It's a birthright just the same as songs, designs, land, sea, etc. There are those who would say the language should be treated the same as those other things. You wouldn't take Yolngu land, you wouldn't start copying and teaching Yolngu songs and designs (though some people would!). Language holds the same importance and is a crucial part of identity.

Hey Randy. I have been thinking about this today, and wonder if it could be comparable to Muslims and their views that the language of the Koran should be Arabic, or it is not the word of Allah to the Prophet.

Then from another point of view, I wonder if perhaps Yolngu feel about that their language the same sort of writer feels about a story he has written, or a muso and his music. Not a 'copyright' issue but more an issue that 'this belongs to me; I "created" it' and a gut feeling/intellectual property issue.

I have a lot of thinking to do, and some reading!

Yirrkala Arts wrote:

Again, what you get from CDU is through approved channels, in the spirit of education and cooperation, and the people they most want to teach are those who are or may someday going to be living and working with Yolngu, to address the issues of misunderstandings that go on every day between Yolngu and those who work with them. I'd know, I have plenty every day!

To be honest that was the spirit I was going for, and by asking Guan to sign up to the stories from John G and Waymamba Gaykamangu, I wanted to make the stories available to the forumites. Still, the books are available to us all, if and when we want them so I will stop harping on

Tell you what though Randy, its an interesting time for all these things. It all makes me very proud to work in the IT industry! What with you in Arnhem land doing your projects (not least the website) and the IKRMNA project to get computers and knowledge management databases out there, well, lets just say, I wish I had not had to come back home to the UK.

Thanks for explaining things to me Randy, it is always appreciated.

best,

Dan

[danielsaan]

Ed Drury wrote:

Hi Daniel, I studied Gupapuyngu through what was then called NTU. Not the best student they had for sure, but the effort was well worth the investment in time. Currently I study Hawai`ian language, but the experience of parsing yolngu matha was invaluable - don't think I would have taken on study of another language without it. I can't agree with Guan more about the aspect of personal motivation and that learning is a life long activity. Ed

Hi Ed

(Before I start, it's a pleasure to get a communication from you! I read you're stuff on Wicked Sticks.com donkey's years ago. Between you and Guan, you got me to see there was more to didgeridus than I first thought, so for that I thank you).

Thanks for that positive note. I am pleased I managed to track down Gupapuyngu, and text books for it. I worked for a little while at the CDU at the end of last year in their IT department. I met John Greatorex and Michael Christie, well I say met... I tracked them down after day two or three and made a bit of a nuisance of myself! It was a lot of fun, firstly to meet the chaps behind the CDU Yolngu studies website but secondly because they put me in touch with a couple of great resources on a subject which I am interested in (so I am discovering) - knowledge management. It ties my interest with yidaki and the Yolngu with computing.

It can't be bad.

All the best,

Dan

[bindi]

language You can get yourself in trouble with language.
In Papua New Guinea I got my self in all sorts of trouble a long time ago speaking Pidgin [Neo-Melanesion, true name] Don't try and apologise for 'pushim' a woman in a crowd in front of her male relatives alot of fast talking was required .

I only found out from a Murrie woman [a very good linguist] I have been saying Guugu Yalanji, Guugu Yimidhirr and GuGu Yimithirr wrong for last few years, it's people from around the area now called Wujal Wujal, and old mission station where my Grandmother was born on the Bloomfield River far NTH QLD.

So the moral is you have to "get it right from the People who live and speak it' otherwise it's not right.
bindi out [and off his soap box].

[Peter Lister]

Yep, it's true, always better from the source but that's pretty difficult for most people - even for you bindi when you are close to it (thinking of your admition at mispronunciation).

Language is a complex thing yet yolngu are often amenable to outsiders learning YM because they know it will trigger an interest in other facets of culture and lead to greater understanding. I think what we need to be wary of is the misuse of YM 'cos that leads to what we are now trying to correct -the misuse of words such as yirdaki, and I think this misuse is a serious concern for yolngu.

Of course everyone is different and some yolngu are protective of their language because of bad experiences and others are encouraging because they see a decline in the use of their language, so for them, anyone recording or using it will keep it alive.

Once you take the step to learn such things you begin to understand how vitally important language is and you don't misuse it - it's only the ignorant that cause these problems and as we speak about these issues the ignorance will dissolve and we'll all learn more.

We can all use the best of our skills to work together - bukmak, rrambangi, balanda ga yolngu, raal-manapanmirr, ngani ? ma.

_________________
Bita

[Yirrkala Arts]

ididjaustralia wrote:

I thought I'd chime in on this one. Randy is correct in that dialects (note the emphasis) are inherited from Ancestral Beings.

Why the emphasis? Is there a Yolngu language to learn that is not a clan dialect? Arguably the baby talk Dhuwaya I suppose. On one hand that'd be the better language for outsiders to start with, but on the other, I've been complimented for using "my" Gumatj language properly in my stilted way at the same time as another non-Yolngu was criticized for speaking Dhuwaya fluently. I suppose that only applies to those who are "adopted" and therefore "have" a language to speak. Dhuwaya would seem to be a good starting point for others, although even that is fairly specific to the Miwatj as far as I know.

Quote:

In Yolngu society and in other parts of Arnhem Land, language is something that is not learnt through any sort of formalised system or channels.

There's no schools of course, but people usually learn their mother's and then hopefully their own language, and move on from there based on their daily dealings. As you say, they can only learn it in person as appropriate. As you suggest there's a status in knowing a lot of languages - it means being a diplomat and learned man. There's one particular guy I know like that around here, and it was always told to me that he was that way because his mother's from the Miwatj, his father's from Maningrida, his mari's from Groote, he's been married to an Anangu woman, etc., and he was therefore very active, useful and respected in all these places.

One thing's for certain, none of these expert multi-lingual Aboriginal People in Arnhem Land learned these languages from books, websites or any non-Aboriginal people. Only from real life interractions in which there'd be kinship connections and other rights and responsibilities in action. To use that as a justification why it's okay for non-Yolngu to use and teach clan dialects is a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

The crucial point here is that this is where language differs from song, painted design, dance, and other forms of cultural property.

That's an opinion. I promise you there are Yolngu who disagree, and who see language as the ultimate sign of identity. The languages were handed down by the ancestors right alongside those other things, even if the rules are less strict in the name of communication. Again, look at the derision a non-Yolngu person gets from their "family" when they speak the wrong language. I'm scolded when I use Gupapuyngu I learned in the course when it differs from Gumatj.

Quote:

As for CDU, I don't know, I haven't heard Yolngu say anything but I would imagine again that it isn't an issue about perceptions of Michael Christie or John G stealing culture

I haven't personally heard Yolngu say anything either, but I've heard stories from the CDU staff about past run-ins. I've also had experiences like that around here. Nothing major. For instance, once a Yolngu woman friend of mine was doing a poor job of explaining a language issue to a local teacher - not that the Yolngu woman was wrong, she just didn't know how to explain it and/or didn't have the patience to do it so that a totally uneducated non-Yolngu could understand. After listening a while and getting frustrated that there was an easy answer, I made the mistake of butting in and explaining it quickly in a way a fellow non-Yolngu could understand, and got a really dirty look from the Yolngu woman and a dismissive, "well, he'll teach you our language from now on." It was probably a personal offense in the moment for me to step in, but there was definitely a, "bah - white person thinks he knows and can explain our language" vibe, even though in that moment, I did know what I was talking about and was helpful in resolving a very infuriating conversation that was going on way longer than it needed to.

I might also ask Wukun what he thinks. It makes me think of his bits on the Yidakiwuy Dhawu site, where he says non-Yolngu shouldn't learn Yolngu yidaki style at all, but only come up with their own styles inspired by their own land and music. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine he'd feel the same way about non-Yolngu learning Yolngu languages without any context and connection to Yolngu people. I'll find out, just for my own interest, if nothing else.

Quote:

but that Yolngu are missing out on jobs (ie. money) taken up by Balanda. This is a valid point and something that needs addressing on a large scale. The question is, why do Indigenous people not fill jobs that they are perfectly suited to and most appropriate for?

Of course that's true on the larger scale, but no way on MC or JG. Have you heard talk like that? If any Yolngu complain about them, then they have an easy way to resolve the issue - get a PhD, learn to write curriculum and grants and fulfill all the responsibilities of a university faculty position. Someday that will happen, but not soon. Not that I'm blaming Yolngu for that - it's a system wide failure going back decades.

Quote:

Coming back to my first hat, I think if students are serious about learning language, it comes down to personal motivation.

Absolutely. I did the CDU course over the internet, was very passionate about it, and did very well. I had only spent something like 3 weeks over 2 years in Arnhem Land at that point, so I didn't do well from experience on the ground. But I did know Yolngu and had somewhat realistic plans to have a longer connection to them, so that provided more motivation than somebody just doing it out of interest and with no real connection to the place.

But I'd disagree that the CDU program is too hard. And I'd say quit doing people's homework for them, Guan! It doesn't help them and you know you don't have time for it! Just because one person who had you as a crutch to rely on didn't do so well doesn't mean the course is too difficult. People do it all the time. There's people doing poorly in all kinds of courses that other people excel in all the time. That's just part of being human.

I think your story actually illustrates one of the biggest problems on the larger issue of Yolngu employment. Some Yolngu may indeed complain about non-Yolngu involved in teaching Yolngu languages - but this woman was unable to get any Yolngu to sit down with her and transcribe a text, to help her learn? (okay, maybe it's her own interpersonal skills or they knew her well enough to know she'd make them do the whole thing) Some Yolngu are incredibly generous with their time for this sort of thing, others have no patience for teaching their language at all.

Well... I better cut it off there....

[Peter Lister]

Seeing this friction and disagreement here (from two whom are closer to the issues at hand)highlights the problems associated with opening a fora for language that is very remote from its' source and demonstrates the widely differing views amongst yolngu and balanda interpretations.

It is our way as balanda to correct a perceived error expediently - not to ponder a situation. Our use of our time is not as considered as it could/should be hence we are often poor diplomats. Even when we know this, it's hard for us to exercise restraint and patience. We can learn much from yolngu in this regard.

I relished my time with yolngu because it forced me to think and work at a pace that I otherwise would have avoided. Like you Randy I have been corrected on incorrect YM because I am accepted amongst a Dhuwa-speaking group yet I was formally studying Gupapuyngu (Yirritja) - even though they (Liyagalawumirr) marry Gupapuyngu as you know, but I never felt I was being "scolded", just assisted with expanding my knowledge. Some yolngu were very encouraging as they believed that if I learned more YM then it would be easier for them to explain yolngu concepts to me rather than struggle with inadequate expressions/explanations in english (from both sides). Yolngu have usually been very patient with me - and often more patient than the balanda I observed working with yolngu in Ramo. (both towards myself and yolngu).

Of course there are always boundaries and we must accept that there are places we shouldn't go. The limits of my enquiries were always made clear to me and I tried to not broach them.

Yolngu have had to learn english for 80 years and now we're finally showing an interest in YM, but it will come slowly and we must be patient. It's a shame we started so late.

In my view it may be wrong to cross the boundary into teaching language without sanction by yolngu and to cross into an area that is currently the purvey of CDU. They have worked hard to ensure the materials are acceptable to yolngu across a wide area and the materials/course are structured in a manner that builds understanding about language and the vital roles it plays amongst yolngu. It forces us to be patient and not to cut corners. Maybe this forum is better suited to explaining specific aspects of how language relates to yirdaki etc. when possible - just so as to gain greater understanding and respect, which I hope we are all striving for.

_________________
Bita

[ididjaustralia]

I think we’re misinterpreting Dan’s sentiments here… it isn’t a request for non-Yolngu to teach YM on this Forum and I am not aware of any Balanda here who is capable of teaching it anyway… kinda makes these discussions and the fear of cultural theft obsolete. The threads and personal anecdotes of what to do and what not to do arising out of the discussion are great though for those who want to know more about languages or those who foresee a time when they will be working with Indigenous Australians or have close contact with them.

Some clarifications follow as no doubt there is interest in the issues talked about so far.

In eastern Arnhem Land, as far as I know, language is indeed a key part of personal and collective identity because language came about through events in the ‘Dreamtime’, during the time in the Ancestral past when the world was created, and features of the social and physical universe were given shape. Part of that was the bestowment of language and other cultural property by Creative Beings. Dialects are named and are distinct to each other in a multitude of ways, sometimes subtly sometimes greatly. Now, you wouldn’t want to encroach on Yolngu property by ‘stealing’ these dialects. That would get you in a heap of trouble! I would imagine that a non-Aboriginal person – on this Forum or elsewhere – who starts making claims as being a teacher of Gupapuyngu, Dhalwangu, Ritharrngu or any other dialect – is going to get know very quickly by Yolngu people who have these dialects as their birthright. And it won’t be in a pleasant way!

Having said that, I would welcome discussion of languages on this Forum, as distinct to calls for Balanda teachers of Yolngu dialects to come forward. If it helps in understanding the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs, possessive adjectives, continuous aspect of a verb, genitives, or present continuous tense, then I’m all for it. Or comparing the differences between, say, Nunggubuyu and Yolngu Matha languages. Or any talk about language or linguistics in general. There are many linguistic/language sites, blogs and forums on the internet, but nothing that specifically focuses on the Top End region as a broad expanse of land where the didjeridu has its origins as well as continuing traditional relevance and practice. Hopefully this Forum addresses that and is ideally placed to do so.

I’d also welcome people pointing out resources on languages that might be useful to Forum participants. Other than hopping on the next plane to Milingimbi to learn Gupapuyngu first-hand, books and other resources are essential for those at a distance who want to know more but don’t know where to look.

And of course I’d throw my arms open to Indigenous Australians to join in, from Arnhem Land or elsewhere! This Forum is for everyone, not just reserved for the privilege of white boys with drone toys! Already there are Yolngu subscribed to this Forum and who have offered their contributions on various things, making this space quite a special place to be where information and opinions can be shared freely - with no cost and no limitations as long as general guidelines are adhered to.

All this would still be a pale comparison to learning in situ of course, or indeed to the CDU program when it is fully-fledged, but better to start with something than nothing at all. Also, this Forum differs because it isn't my interest nor my prerogative to focus on one dialect like Gupapuyngu, for example, but to throw it open to language and linguistics in general. I’ve had so many inquiries about language resources over the years and have done nothing about it so now is the chance to catch up on that.

Oi Peter! It is interesting what Yolngu say to Balanda about not speaking the right dialect. It is a curious thing because many Yolngu themselves living in main settlements don’t speak their own dialect but have transitioned to the lingua franca current in the community, whether it is Dhuwal’, Dhuwala’, Dhuwaya’ etc. I guess they want us to be model Yolngu citizens! A funny story… I remember Guthaykuthay telling off a doctoral student in art history many years ago. The student was wearing a t-shirt with some sort of Aboriginal design on it, I can’t remember what. Guthaykuthay said something like “Eh! You can’t wear that, that Dreaming doesn’t belong to you!”. Very smartly, the student replied back “No, but its my Mother’s Dreaming”. Guthaykuthay didn’t say anything and walked away satisfied. Good story eh?

Disagreements here? Nah! I’m sure Randy agrees with what I’ve said just with different stories. Personal anecdotes are great for illuminating the shaky ground we sometimes stand on as outsiders and if there’s one lesson in this, it is that you don’t correct Yolngu when it comes to things relating to their realm especially when they are present. I’ve learnt that hard lesson too many times - embarrassingly always. The thing I’ve observed in Western society is that we’re quick to interject in conversation, to correct, to fill-in words that the other speaker is grappling with… basically, to demonstrate our knowledge or 'show off' as Yolngu would say. In Yolngu society it doesn’t seem to be the done thing. Conversations work quite differently and the interplay between listener and speaker unlike what we find in the Balanda world.

'Tis a beautiful thing language!

_________________
iDIDJ Australia - Didgeridoo Cultural Hub
E-mail: info@ididj.com.au
Web: www.ididj.com.au
YouTube: www.youtube.com/ididjaustralia

[Peter Lister]

ididjaustralia wrote:

Oi Peter! It is interesting what Yolngu say to Balanda about not speaking the right dialect. It is a curious thing because many Yolngu themselves living in main settlements don’t speak their own dialect but have transitioned to the lingua franca current in the community, whether it is Dhuwal’, Dhuwala’, Dhuwaya’ etc. I guess they want us to be model Yolngu citizens! A funny story… I remember Guthaykuthay telling off a doctoral student in art history many years ago. The student was wearing a t-shirt with some sort of Aboriginal design on it, I can’t remember what. Guthaykuthay said something like “Eh! You can’t wear that, that Dreaming doesn’t belong to you!”. Very smartly, the student replied back “No, but its my Mother’s Dreaming”. Guthaykuthay didn’t say anything and walked away satisfied. Good story eh? Disagreements here? 'Tis a beautiful thing language!

Yep, it is a good story and I can imagine that old man in that situation ! You know, he thought I'd be interested in a croc's head to take back to Sydney - !! I know we're weird but they clearly think we're weirder than we think we are.....I guess they witness some pretty strange balanda behaviour at times.

Disagreements - well maybe I should have said "debate" - see, even in english it's difficult to choose words wisely.

Yep, languages rule - fascinatin' - but hard to keep them in my head at my age, especially without frequent use !!

Oh, and isnt it true that as a mark of respect between yolngu individuals it's often polite to speak the dialect of the person you're addressing rather than your own ?? Makes it difficult to eavesdrop !

_________________
Bita

[danielsaan]

Peter Lister wrote:

bukmak, rrambangi, balanda ga yolngu, raal-manapanmirr, ngani ? ma.

Peter I hope to understand that one day!

[danielsaan]

ididjaustralia wrote:

I think we’re misinterpreting Dan’s sentiments here… it isn’t a request for non-Yolngu to teach YM on this Forum..and I am not aware of any Balanda here who is capable of teaching it anyway… kinda makes these discussions and the fear of cultural theft obsolete. The threads and personal anecdotes of what to do and what not to do arising out of the discussion are great though for those who want to know more about languages or those who foresee a time when they will be working with Indigenous Australians or have close contact with them.

Gents, it makes for great reading from a novice point of view! Its true that I was not requesting for Non-Yolngu to teach, but it is useful and interesting to hear views from the field. Being stuck here in Pomgolia, it is not easy to get 'real life' views, so this thread is very useful to me.

ididjaustralia wrote:

Some clarifications follow as no doubt there is interest in the issues talked about so far.

It never hurts to reiterate Guan!

ididjaustralia wrote:

In eastern Arnhem Land, as far as I know, language is indeed a key part of personal and collective identity because language came about through events in the ‘Dreamtime’, during the time in the Ancestral past when the world was created, and features of the social and physical universe were given shape.

I was under the impression that 'Dream time' had been laughed off some what? Is that not the case? When I watched 10 Canoes, DG did not say 'Dream time' a single time from what I remember! Is it a valid term?

ididjaustralia wrote:

Part of that was the bestowment of language and other cultural property by Creative Beings. Dialects are named and are distinct to each other in a multitude of ways, sometimes subtly sometimes greatly. Now, you wouldn’t want to encroach on Yolngu property by ‘stealing’ these dialects. That would get you in a heap of trouble! I would imagine that a non-Aboriginal person – on this Forum or elsewhere – who starts making claims as being a teacher of Gupapuyngu, Dhalwangu, Ritharrngu or any other dialect – is going to get know very quickly by Yolngu people who have these dialects as their birthright. And it won’t be in a pleasant way! Having said that, I would welcome discussion of languages on this Forum, as distinct to calls for Balanda teachers of Yolngu dialects to come forward. If it helps in understanding the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs, possessive adjectives, continuous aspect of a verb, genitives, or present continuous tense, then I’m all for it. Or comparing the differences between, say, Nunggubuyu and Yolngu Matha languages. Or any talk about language or linguistics in general. There are many linguistic/language sites, blogs and forums on the internet, but nothing that specifically focuses on the Top End region as a broad expanse of land where the didjeridu has its origins as well as continuing traditional relevance and practice. Hopefully this Forum addresses that and is ideally placed to do so. I’d also welcome people pointing out resources on languages that might be useful to Forum participants. Other than hopping on the next plane to Milingimbi to learn Gupapuyngu first-hand, books and other resources are essential for those at a distance who want to know more but don’t know where to look.

If only I could...!

ididjaustralia wrote:

And of course I’d throw my arms open to Indigenous Australians to join in, from Arnhem Land or elsewhere! This Forum is for everyone, not just reserved for the privilege of white boys with drone toys! Already there are Yolngu subscribed to this Forum and who have offered their contributions on various things, making this space quite a special place to be where information and opinions can be shared freely - with no cost and no limitations as long as general guidelines are adhered to. All this would still be a pale comparison to learning in situ of course, or indeed to the CDU program when it is fully-fledged, but better to start with something than nothing at all.

Thats the dream....

ididjaustralia wrote:

Also, this Forum differs because it isn't my interest nor my prerogative to focus on one dialect like Gupapuyngu, for example, but to throw it open to language and linguistics in general. I’ve had so many inquiries about language resources over the years and have done nothing about it so now is the chance to catch up on that.

I suggsted Gupapuyngu because I knew that there were emails being sent out already. I did not find out about any other resources while I was in the NT

ididjaustralia wrote:

Oi Peter! It is interesting what Yolngu say to Balanda about not speaking the right dialect. It is a curious thing because many Yolngu themselves living in main settlements don’t speak their own dialect but have transitioned to the lingua franca current in the community, whether it is Dhuwal’, Dhuwala’, Dhuwaya’ etc. I guess they want us to be model Yolngu citizens! A funny story… I remember Guthaykuthay telling off a doctoral student in art history many years ago. The student was wearing a t-shirt with some sort of Aboriginal design on it, I can’t remember what. Guthaykuthay said something like “Eh! You can’t wear that, that Dreaming doesn’t belong to you!”. Very smartly, the student replied back “No, but its my Mother’s Dreaming”. Guthaykuthay didn’t say anything and walked away satisfied. Good story eh? Disagreements here? Nah! I’m sure Randy agrees with what I’ve said just with different stories. Personal anecdotes are great for illuminating the shaky ground we sometimes stand on as outsiders and if there’s one lesson in this, it is that you don’t correct Yolngu when it comes to things relating to their realm especially when they are present. I’ve learnt that hard lesson too many times - embarrassingly always. The thing I’ve observed in Western society is that we’re quick to interject in conversation, to correct, to fill-in words that the other speaker is grappling with… basically, to demonstrate our knowledge or 'show off' as Yolngu would say. In Yolngu society it doesn’t seem to be the done thing. Conversations work quite differently and the interplay between listener and speaker unlike what we find in the Balanda world. 'Tis a beautiful thing language!

Hell, yes it is, what ever language it is (except Klingon). Thanks again Guan, Randy & Peter.


Dan

[Peter Lister]

danielsaan wrote:

Peter Lister wrote: bukmak, rrambangi, balanda ga yolngu, raal-manapanmirr, ngani ? ma. Peter I hope to understand that one day!

It's somethng like, "all of us,balanda and yolngu skillfully working together, OK ?"

_________________
Bita

[ididjaustralia]

Peter Lister wrote:

Oh, and isnt it true that as a mark of respect between yolngu individuals it's often polite to speak the dialect of the person you're addressing rather than your own ??

I don't know to be honest. It may be the case with old people but I haven't really observed it amongst younger persons. Or it may be one of those ideals that is not practiced much anymore... a bit like how everyone in the local community should attend funerals because it is a mark of respect but some people prefer to watch TV, drink kava, sleep...

Did old man Yambal tell this to you?

Guan

_________________
iDIDJ Australia - Didgeridoo Cultural Hub
E-mail: info@ididj.com.au
Web: www.ididj.com.au
YouTube: www.youtube.com/ididjaustralia

[ididjaustralia]

Hello again Dan,

You are enrolled in the CDU program yes? If so it may be useful for others to know more about it if you have info, like cost, duration of the program, how easy or difficult it is etc. It may seem like I was critical of the course when really I am not and I've never done it so I don't know from an insider's point of view. I know there are great people behind it, folks who really know their stuff, and it is a unique program that you wouldn't find anywhere else in the world.

I'm curious to know if there are plans at CDU to expand to other languages/dialects other than Gupapuyngu. Do you know Randy?

With the 'Dreamtime' thing, I don't know if it is a valid term or not, depends on who you ask and what you mean by valid. It is a phrase that people recognise. In some of the anthropological literature I've seen the term Wangarr to describe the creative distant past, but I've never heard Yolngu use this in the field to explain the idea. Instead they use the word Wangarr for Creative Beings, Creative Ancestors etc.

_________________
iDIDJ Australia - Didgeridoo Cultural Hub
E-mail: info@ididj.com.au
Web: www.ididj.com.au
YouTube: www.youtube.com/ididjaustralia