iDIDJ Australia Didgeridoo Cultural Hub

[flyangler18]

Quote:

In my opinion, yes. I do think it is a very different instrument, although I must admit I know little about others instruments. I get the impression though that we (as westerners) 'adopt' these other instruments and then modify them to "improve" them or to have them fit with our style of music quite often. The emergence of "world music' may mean the reverse has sometimes taken place and the trad sound of an instument and its' origins are now valued more...and of course the instruments you listed are not called by their original iranian, japanese or indonesian names by us and the wider community generally are they ??

Your comments about the emergence of 'world music' in the sense of using ethnic and indigenous instruments intrigue me, Peter. In my view, 'world music' in the popular idiom means an adaptation of indigenous instruments in a Western musical lexicon. With respect to yidaki in particular, I suppose we can turn to the fusion mix of Yothu Yindi as being pioneering in bringing a distinctively trad sound to contemporary pop compositions, with the resultant rhythmic patternings of the yidakimirr being influenced (and constrained) by Western common time.

Jason

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[Peter Lister]

Yes, the sound generated is vital - so first one must have the right stick, and second one must be able to play in the respective style for that piece/occasion. Knowing the piece to be played is not enough alone - being able to make the right sound viz; right technique is crucial. This is where we are left behind as non-yolngu because it's very difficult for us, or at least me, to reproduce the same notes even on exactly the same instrument. Sometimes players are changed during ceremony for a variety of reasons (ability, tiredness, kin appropriatness etc) but I suspect that sometimes it comes down to someone not being able to play a particular piece competently - sometimes it has to be the reverse situation because the best/most appropriate player is not available (sometimes the yidaki is done away with completely in such a situation, 'cos by far it's the singing and the sticks that count).

[Peter Lister]

Hi Jason,

bad choice of term on reflection "world music" - not very clear about what I'm trying to convey. Sorry.

I was referring to the resurgence/expansion of music of other cultures and the popularity of choosing to include such instruments from other cultures in western-styles of music. (I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to say) "We" have chosen to use a instrument from another culture to enhance/flavour the sound we are trying to create - either because we now place greater value upon it or because we see it as a sort of marketing edge - gotta have that unique sound !

Isthat any clearer - maybe I'm diging a hole for myself...

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[flyangler18]

No worries, Peter- I understood your meaning completely

The integration of instruments from other cultures from around the world into popular music is certainly a trend that is happening here in the States, and I would even trace it back to the progressive rock movement- where instruments not typically found in a stage rock band began to appear, sometimes for the sake of novelty and sometimes through a genuine and devoted interest in non-Western musical traditions. After all, the Beatles were influenced by TM and George Harrison began integrating sitar into his compositions!

The ideal outcome, of course, is that didjeridu players become interested in the source culture that birthed it and seek to learn more through what may have initially started as musical curiousity- and can certainly be referenced to instruments from other cultures as well, that musical exploration prompts deeper investigations into the cultures that fostered a musical tradition.

Jason

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[Darth Ak-sar-ben]

That's the greatest thing, Jason, is that people, like me, get a keener understating of the traditions of what/ where the didgeridoo is. To some folks, the instrument is a means to an end, a sound, or a $$$ of profit to be made by capitalizing on ignorance and popularity. To others it's a solemn yearning to learn to do better to "emulate" and be like but to also develop your own style. I have heard many of the dit a roo (and variances) of vamps, and have heard Darryl time and time again, stray off that beaten path. I asked him about this, and he told me that the playing is similar, but you can always change it a little and develop your own sound and your own style. Which, would never do for any ceremonies as Peter pointed out, but for simple playing to listen to pleasant didgeridoo sounds, it's nice.

The thread was titled about whether it is right to play traditional. I believe it is alright based on the fact that we don't speak their language, or abide in their culture, and also we would never get it right anyway. It would always be something close, similar, but not close enough. Likewise, I don't think I'd be allowed to perform a ceremonial Jewish Circumcision, even if I am handy with cutting tools.

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Vern

"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

http://www.vernsdidj.com

[Peter Lister]

[quote="Darth Ak-sar-ben"]is similar, but you can always change it a little and develop your own sound and your own style. Which, would never do for any ceremonies as Peter pointed out, but for simple playing to listen to pleasant didgeridoo sounds, it's nice. quote]

And I fear I'm adding to this straying from the original thread. There are many yolngu pieces where the yidaki player does improvise as if it were a jazz piece and where they do bring elements of their own particular style to the piece though. I don't believe things are so flexible in the west where the structure of performed works is more rigid. But having said that, the underlying thread that makes a yolngu piece recognisable is obvious to all listeners/performers and there are pieces that must be played correctly.

I read somewhere in the last day or so here that Digarrna said he'd not replicate the animal calls his grandfather was famous for - that he was performing his own style. His gandfather says, on the cover of 'Bamyili Corroboree' from about 1976? that those calls are not part of their tradition but were developed by him to bridge the cultural gap between black and white australians - in his words "tourist songs" if I remember correctly. (I recall buying this album brand new as a teenager)....Things have changed so much since then - back then I didn't know anybody that even knew the word yidaki or yolngu - I can't believe it's been 30 years !!

So what motivates us to cross a perceived cultural divide is a personal thing and maybe some of that can be applied to what motivates us to take part here.

Peter

[Ahaw]

Hi there !

All this is very interresting

I've got two questions resulting of what I've just read there :

1 > stupid question, but what do you call VAMP ???

Quote:

I have heard many of the dit a roo (and variances) of vamps

2 > These trad' patterns used in the didjeridu playing, like WAL's Di Ta Moor or NEAL's Dup Dup..., do they actually MEAN things in some Aboriginal language ?
And/or are they meant to create special "feelings" on the player+audience ?
I am thinking of this in relation to the Tibetan mantra "Om Mani Padme Hum" that both means something and is said to have perticular sounding (succession of vibrations) that help meditation, that calms the mind.
As didj's vibrations are much more powerfull that vocal's vibes, I was thinking that maybe some trad' patterns have been (also) developped around this "mind modifying vibration" concept... empiricly enhanced throughout the centuries... (???)

[flyangler18]

Quote:

what do you call VAMP ???

A vamp is a repeating musical figure or accompaniment, usually the basis for improvisation, i.e 'Di-Ta-Mor'.

Consider it a building block of rhythm.

Quote:

do they actually MEAN things in some Aboriginal language ?

As far as my research indicates, mago and yidaki rhythmic vocabularies are just that, 'mouth sounds'.

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[Darth Ak-sar-ben]

Jason, if you have stated accurately, you have made it clear that the title of this thread "Trad playing styles as cultural property" should be a clear answer... NO

A building block of rhythm, or rhythm is not unique, hence not protected.

"Mouth Sounds" that are just that, and have no meaning, but are part of the rhythmic vocabulary sounds are also not considered sacred and hence should not be considered protected.

As stated earlier, even among players in the tribes there are variances and drifting into different player styles. One traditional player may be replaced because he does not know the piece. Peter Lister said earlier, "Sometimes players are changed during ceremony for a variety of reasons (ability, tiredness, kin appropriateness etc) but I suspect that sometimes it comes down to someone not being able to play a particular piece competently - sometimes it has to be the reverse situation because the best/most appropriate player is not available..."

For white people to duplicate the notes exactly is nearly impossible even on the same instrument. Could be mouth shape, physical attributes and deep rooted sub conscious influence along with the fact of the language difference??

In due respect, why would one go to such great length to make a Yidaki or Mago in a key that was a great player, and play that instrument if it were not assumed that the buyer would play it? Even non decorated didgeridoos are made with standards of being good to excellent players without any artwork decorations (speaking of authentic Arnhem land instruments).

If Winchester Repeating Arms (rifle maker) would make an exemplary target rifle to be used by a marksman in a competition, and go to the extreme care to make sure the rifling was smooth, the fittings were well machined and polished, the barrel and receiver were well fitted into the wooden stock, and so on, they would expect it to be used as such, as a fine tuned target rifle. In fact they might even give instructions booklets on rifle marksmanship along with DVD instruction on its use and care, just to make sure that the owner would be satisfied.

How odd it would be for the Aboriginal Craftsman to make a Yidaki or Mago, and go to the extra work of making sure it not only looked good but it played good as well, and then not expect someone to play it.

If I teach you how to make good wine, and you go on to make wine even better than I do, doesn't that reflect that I was a good teacher in getting you down the basics and you can emulate me or develop your own style?

When Darryl teaches he should get paid, it means he is a worthy teacher and deserves to be paid. It does not mean he is looking at it in a strictly monetary view, but more of an ethical view that what her provides is something of value. Sometimes the highest form of payment is not in money but in the hug and tears in someone's eyes with the "thank you!" that you have given them something they treasure. It doesn't help the bank account but it adds significantly to your inner feelings about your work.

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Cheers!
Vern

"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

http://www.vernsdidj.com

[Josh Staley]

Quote:

Jason, if you have stated accurately, you have made it clear that the title of this thread "Trad playing styles as cultural property" should be a clear answer... NO A building block of rhythm, or rhythm is not unique, hence not protected.

I agree with ya Vern to a certain extent. It comes across as somewhat complicated to me. I agree that rhythms themselves should not be considered protected, but the songs themselves (at least yirdaki/mago parts) are just rhythm patterns. I think its somewhat comparable to guitar riffs. I know guitar players are often very protective of their riffs. While not legally enforced, its considered bad form to copy other players riffs. The traditional patterns seem somewhat like that. I guess my view is its alright to play these for amusement, but if you try to pass things off as your own compositions, a line has been crossed. They can inspire new compositions, but should be altered to avoid copying. Like a guitar riff can sound like Hendrix without being the same, an original composition can sound Yolngu, but not actually be a traditonal song or rhythm pattern.

Do others think it is wrong for outsiders to learn songs like Dolphin or West Wind?

[flyangler18]

I think you are reading too far into what I have written, Vern.

I was offering the agreed upon definition of what constitutes a 'vamp', a term that we didjeridu players/enthusiasts use to define a small 'piece' of a rhythm. As you are most interested in WAL, then I will use that- 'Di-Ta-Mor'. This is the basic vamp used by Darryl though he injects other accents and pauses that deviate from this basic form, as you rightly pointed out.-- varying tempii, double breaths, the Mimi style 'pauses', longer vocal accents/hums, etc. And just as there are trad pieces(typically Yolngu) that are quite improvisational, it always comes back to some backbone structure within the framework established by the clapsticks.

Western music does this as well-- there are theories of improvisation in jazz and an underlying structure that prevents it from erupting into chaos.
I am all about developing your own style, so I'm not sure where those comments came from. Each of us have their own flavor of playing, though it may be distillable to a certain core group of techniques.

Now it seems that there isn't a consensus with Yolngu and how they see non-Aboriginal people playing yidaki. Randy has shared that some Yolngu think its okay to learn yidaki parts of songs, because we don't understand everything, then others think even the yidaki parts shouldn't be learned by non-Aboriginal people. Without the support of the songman/clapsticks, it doesn't really make much sense to listeners and is always out of context, which is fine- because I'm not trying to recreate some sense of Aboriginality through playing trad style.

But one thing is clear- I may learn traditional songs through close listening/study and play them privately for my own satisfaction and enjoyment, but will not play them publicly.

Jason

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[pacdidj]

Quote:

But one thing is clear- I may learn traditional songs through close listening/study and play them privately for my own satisfaction and enjoyment, but will not play them publicly.

Hear, hear Jason!

[Darth Ak-sar-ben]

flyangler18 wrote:

But one thing is clear- I may learn traditional songs through close listening/study and play them privately for my own satisfaction and enjoyment, but will not play them publicly. Jason

But Jason, you already have. All the examples of vamps of different Mago's you put on Serious Sticks forums, along with Christian and Kyle are public.

I am encouraged by Guan to post my song here in his forum for critique, which would be public. Anyone can listen to and copy them back to their own computer. From the encouragement of so many I would get the impression you want me to do better, at the Mago, and the vamps. If I were to sound "nearly" like Darryl Dikarrna eventually, wouldn't you say I've done a great job? Can I imitate Darryl? To some degree with enough practice, maybe fairly close, but in all reality, I don't think Darryl plays each Mago exactly the same from time to time. If you were to record him playing a Mago, say the Ports Keats and then have him play the "SAME" tune 20 minutes later, I bet the analysis either on ear or by way of sound file analysis, would show that there are parts that are not identical.

To play from notes, such as a piano, a piece can be duplicated time and time again, and is so by Concert Pianists and those that make a living by playing the piano. Each note and inflection is written down and can be repeated with somewhat extreme precision. With the Didgeridoo my opinion, is that it an instrument of "feel" of passion and flow and though the majority of the structure of a piece is nearly the same, the inflections at the time may vary.

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Cheers!
Vern

"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

http://www.vernsdidj.com

[flyangler18]

Quote:

But Jason, you already have. All the examples of vamps of different Mago's you put on Serious Sticks forums, along with Christian and Kyle are public.

Correction- what I've posted are not codified songs used in ceremony by either Yolngu or Bininy, but my own 'performances' ultilizing traditional techniques. There is a difference.

To take the point a bit further, because I am not an initiated member of Aboriginal society and thus not privy to sacred/secrets aspects of customary law, my very position as a Western player looking in puts everything into a different light. I enjoy the technical aspect of traditional didjeridu play, but definitely am not trying to recreate a sense of Aboriginality through a study of traditional styles. All comes down to intent, my friend.

Jason

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[ididjaustralia]

Darth Ak-sar-ben wrote:

Jason, if you have stated accurately, you have made it clear that the title of this thread "Trad playing styles as cultural property" should be a clear answer... NO A building block of rhythm, or rhythm is not unique, hence not protected.

Interesting discussion here. These are at least two issues: cultural property and protection. Whether playing styles ought to be protected or not - or indeed can be protected given the limited mechanisms for monitoring, policing and prosecuting - is a moot point. And let's not start on what constitutes traditional playing styles because I don't think anyone could agree on that! But as an aside, does something have to be unique to be protected?

But the other issue is cultural property. It seems clear to me, from what Darryl has said, that he considers playing styles as cultural property. We might debate all we want as to whether it is or isn't cultural property, but the fact remains that among the original didgeridoo players of Australia, there is a code of respect that is observed when it comes to inter-personal, inter-clan and inter-tribe relations, which is that you don't encroach on other people's property whether it is land, intangible assets like songs, dances and ceremonies, or physical property such as sacred-secret totemic objects, or Toyota Landcruisers for that matter!

I think it is rather silly for us to decide what is and what isn't cultural property when Aboriginal people are telling us what they know to be cultural property. We could look at a sacred-secret rangga object from Arnhem Land and say that it is just a piece of wood with some pigment decoration adorning it. Nothing unique about that. But does that mean it isn't cultural property? Rangga are among the highest forms of cultural property for Yolngu, and for us to say that they are not is offensive at the least.

Darth Ak-sar-ben wrote:

"Mouth Sounds" that are just that, and have no meaning, but are part of the rhythmic vocabulary sounds are also not considered sacred and hence should not be considered protected.

Just because something is not sacred does not necessarily mean that it is not worthy of protection or that it should not be protected. How many mundane things in this world are protected intellectual property? We mustn't fall into the trap of thinking that Aboriginal society is entirely ruled by sentiments of 'sacredness'.

The reason I started this thread was to point out something that I previously did not know, which is that playing styles can be regarded as cultural property. Darryl's elucidation of the matter was insightful to me but I also know that there is more to it than that. That if more 'Top Enders' were to be consulted about this issue, we'd get a rich tapestry of cultural knowledge and information about traditional practices and ideologies. Knowing this sort of information enriches one's life experience and demonstrates the beauty of cultural diversity. And gives us one more reason to love the didgeridoo and to respect its cultural origins

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